A spirited and illuminating conversation between Francis Pring-Mill (Francis), author of There Is No Somewhere Else, and me, Diamond Michael Scott (Diamond), philosopher and curator of The Daily Chocolate Taoist
☯️ Diamond: Let’s jump right into the fire, Francis by talking about wu wei, the great paradox or “Effortless action.” Yet most of the meaningful shit in life doesn’t feel effortless at all. Telling someone a truth they don’t want to hear. Leaving a relationship that’s draining your soul. That stuff burns. So how do you square that with the “non-doing” that Lao Tzu speaks of?
💥Francis: Ah, now we’re playing with paradox properly. I’ve wrestled with that question myself, honestly. Does living in harmony with the Tao always feel effortless? I doubt it. What I do know is that the Tao warns against forcing and rushing into action, trying to grasp things before they’re ripe. But I don’t think that means we never move into hard terrain.
There’s this cultural misunderstanding that wu wei means the “easy way out.” But it’s not about ease. It’s about alignment. When we act from the Tao, even if it feels like effort, it’s not forced. It’s not our ego white-knuckling the wheel. It’s flow—sometimes fierce, sometimes feather-light.
☯️ Diamond: Exactly. I’ve had moments where I trembled walking into a truth-telling conversation, where my whole body was screaming, “run!” But something deeper and steadier was guiding the action. I call that the Tao inside me. Wu wei isn’t pain-free. But it’s manipulation-free.
It’s not about whether something’s hard or easy. It’s about whether it arises from flow or from fear. One is the Tao in motion. The other is the ego in drag.
💥Francis: Well said. But what about when life throws chaos in our path—real chaos, not the poetic kind? What happens when we feel called to act, not transcend? Is there still a wu wei response in moments of emotional or moral emergency?
☯️ Diamond: That’s where I think wu wei really becomes fierce grace. Chaos doesn’t always need to be tamed. Sometimes it needs to be entered not with control, but with clarity. Wu wei isn’t about passivity. It’s about presence.
Think of Dr. King, or even Zhuangzi’s fish trap analogy which implies that once you’ve gotten the fish, you can forget the trap. The action arises, not from outrage or ego, but from the deeper current of necessity. Wu wei can be civil disobedience. It can be calling out injustice. It can be about walking away without a sound. But it’s never about feeding the fire of entanglement.
💥Francis: That’s powerful. It reminds me that the danger of action isn’t always the action itself but the self behind it. When we act from ego, we bind ourselves. When we act from the Tao, we dissolve into the greater movement. Sometimes not acting is a form of entanglement akin to hiding behind spiritual language while injustice rolls on.
☯️ Diamond: Let’s stretch this even further. I wrote in one of my Chocolate Taoist essays that “peace doesn’t come from mastering the chaos, but from no longer needing to.” But what if that chaos includes your aging mother, or your child’s heartbreak, or a community in crisis? You can’t just sit on a mountaintop and vibe your way through that.
💥Francis: True. That’s where the illusion of detachment gets shattered. The Tao doesn’t call us to disengage from life—it calls us to stop forcing it. Relationships, responsibilities, entanglements are all part of the dance. But when we try to master them, that’s when we invite chaos in.
The secret, maybe, is getting ourselves out of the way. Then, even in complexity, the Tao can do its thing.
☯️ Diamond: Yes. And complexity, especially in relationships, has its own gravitational pull. I’ve had to learn that wu wei in family dynamics isn’t some mystical calm. It’s a radical presence. Sometimes the most aligned thing is just to sit with someone in their pain without trying to fix it.
I don’t escape the mess, I enter it more fully. But I do so without attachment to an outcome. I stop fighting the wave. I ride it.
💥Francis: That brings us to discernment. Knowing when to act and when to surrender. Most spiritual traditions talk about it, but Taoism feels more slippery. No commandments. No checklist. Just vibes and verses.
What’s your compass when it’s not clear whether to push or let go?
☯️ Diamond: I ask myself one question: Am I reacting, or am I responding?
Reacting is hot. Urgent. Performative. Responding feels slow. Rooted. It has weight but no tension.
I’ve stood in rooms where my silence was the protest. I’ve spoken up when my voice shook. Stillness is my discernment dojo. Without it, I’m just swinging at shadows.
💥Francis Pring Mill: You’ve touched on something vital. That wisdom isn’t about always knowing what to do. It’s about knowing how to be still enough to feel the difference. Even the serenity prayer hinges on this: the wisdom to know the difference.
And yet, surrender and action can both come from ego if we’re not vigilant.
☯️ Diamond: Yup, but that’s the trap. Even surrender can be performative. I’ve “let go” just to prove I was evolved. I’ve “acted” just to avoid sitting in discomfort. Wu Wei calls for brutal honesty with yourself. You can’t fake being in flow. Your body knows. Your breath knows. Your dreams know.
💥Francis: So here’s the final riddle: Sometimes action aligned with the Tao looks like great effort. It might even feel like it’s great effort. Does it still count as wu wei?
☯️ Diamond: Absolutely. From the outside, I might look like I’m fighting Goliath—sweating, trembling, exhausted. But inside? It’s breath. It’s clarity. It’s the Tao doing the heavy lifting through me.
I believe that wu wei isn’t always quiet. Sometimes it’s thunder. But even thunder, when aligned, is natural. It breaks the silence not for attention, but for renewal.
💥Francis: That’s a great way to put it. Maybe wu wei isn’t about ease, but about essence. When our actions express our deepest coherence, it’s wu wei, even if it breaks a sweat. Maybe what makes it “effortless” is that we’re no longer resisting what wants to move through us.
☯️ Diamond: Fierce grace. That’s what I call it. Wu wei isn’t a trick to master life. It’s a surrender to what’s already moving. Not a technique, but a devotion. Not to comfort, but to coherence.
And in a world tearing itself apart from over-efforting, from over-control, from obsession with outcomes—maybe coherence is the most radical act of all.
Francis, your humility in exploring this mystery… it’s a gift. You have reminded me that even asking the question is a form of wu wei when done without grasping. When done just to keep company with the mystery.
💥Francis: And you, my friend, remind me that the Tao isn’t locked in ancient verses. It’s in trembling honesty. In real-time alignment. In that cup of tea you’re holding. In your next breath. In mine.
Let’s walk the paradox a little longer, shall we?
☯️ Diamond: Let’s. There’s nowhere else to be. As your book so beautifully reminds us…. “There is no somewhere else.”
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Diamond-Michael Scott, aka The Chocolate Taoist
Thank you for sharing this discussion. I’m trying to embrace stillness. My mantra has become how to respond and not react. Sometimes that is easier than other times. When I hear our country is on the human rights watch list, it is hard not to fall into deep grief, fear, and paralysis. I do know that action assuages anxiety. I feel compelled to respond. It’s a practice. I am learning to pause and go inside, to sit with these feelings and not just react. Thank you for supporting this by reinforcing and guiding us towards hope, patience and connection.
Let’s walk the paradox a little longer, shall we? <3 <3 <3